The US primaries and the general election are two different things. Voting uncommitted in the primary expresses support for the Palestinian plight and does not give Republicans any ground.
The uncommitted movement presents a safe and effective avenue for voters to voice dissatisfaction with President Biden’s policies, particularly with the Israel-Hamas conflict. By doing so in the primary, voters can signal discontent without risking a Republican victory in the general election. The purpose is to send a wake-up call to the Biden administration that it is failing to address issues and effectively engage with the party, vis a vis that Biden is enabling a genocide.
That being said, anyone who calls for an uncommitted or third-party vote in the general election i will personally kick in the gender neutral balls (in Minecraft).
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That’s not the message though, so this is disingenuous or misleading. We all 98% agree the US should tell Israel to quit their shit and not give them more funds or weapons, and that it’s disappointing Biden and 90% of the US political establishment have supported this. However, what people are told is we should not vote for Biden, and vote third party or not vote, to ‘send the Democrats a message’. Enough people doing that would have the predictable result of getting Trump elected, so yeah, it’s a decent question why people would suggest that when a Trump admin would surely be worse on the Palestine issue.
Enough people doing that would have the predictable result of getting Trump elected,
I agree with this and it’s what I’m afraid of. I totally support voting in the primary as you wish, even just to send a message (I support voting how you wish in all cases). But in this case using primary voting to send a dissatisfied message about the Democratic candidate has me worried it will instead send a wider message (or mass media will push this message) that the US populace feels Biden is unpopular compared to Trump.
Which is absolutely not the case with the vast majority of people voting against Biden in the primary. But that kind of message (accidental or intentional) can do real harm to prevent a literal fascist takeover in November. This is the totality of my concern and if we weren’t facing down the potential end of democracy in the US, I’d give a lot less shits about potentially torpedoing Biden’s chances. And I feel a lot of the hate against Biden has galvanized right around the time the primary season started which seems convenient for Trump.
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You can’t argue this without being called a conspiracy theorist who likely also believes that 9/11 was an inside job as well (or at least was permitted to occur by the CIA)
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A conspiracy is an agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
Such things indisputably occur everyday
It’s almost like sending bombs to kill innocent children might be one of those wedge issues
you misunderstand the us primary election process.
The uncommitted movement presents a safe and effective avenue for voters to voice dissatisfaction with President Biden’s policies, particularly with the Israel-Hamas conflict. By doing so in the primary, voters can signal discontent without risking a Republican victory in the general election. The purpose is to send a wake-up call to the Biden administration that it is failing to address issues and effectively engage with the party, vis a vis that Biden is enabling a genocide.
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it’s so depressing dude. children and families are dying and somehow when a group of people get together to try to make change in a safe way they get accused of supporting MAGA.
i’m so blackpilled with how quickly this community takes to knee-jerk name calling and misinformation.
Further, they don’t see that their unhinged behavior is literally being just like the Trump cult and demanding total submission to Trump.
Demanding total submission to the whims of Biden isn’t any better. Cool guys, you’ve just proved you’re just as out of touch and following talking points as Trump idiots do. Good job on making yourself look like a thoughtless idiot, real winner behavior there.
eh in the face of name calling and bad faith plastering of the label “fascist” i’m not going to do the same
i do get what you are saying! but i’m gonna try to be the better woman and firmly encourage informed self-interrogation when this happens, rather than falling back to good old comparison with the enemy.
You’re a better person than me, hats off to ya.
thanks buddie 😭
I mean, try and keep in mind that lemmy isn’t a monolith.
As many brow-beaters as there are trying to force you into voting against your own interests for yet another corporate Democrat (oh but this one is less against your own interests than that other guy), there are also people trying to express nuance and having a real conversation.
Its clear to me leftists and progressives need their own party. It can and should caucus with Democrats, but it needs to have its own, actually democratic, primary system independent from whatever the-fuck-is-this-bull-shit thing the Democrats call a primary. No I don’t think any of the existing parties are sufficient (DSA or greens).
I put a post up a few minutes ago advocating for this. I think it could find its start in the upper-midwest, be focused on inclusivity and social democracy, and still caucus with Democrats. But there is no power in blue-no-matter-who. In many ways, its blue-no-matter-who that has delivered us a burgeoning neofacist movement, because we’re forced to vote for shitty corporate Democrats uncritically. We need to abandon the white-liberalism of the NYT, NPR, Atlantic, and WaPo crowd. Its not working, It never worked. Enlightened mediocrity has only made things worse for all of us. This is probably my last election as a registered Democrat. I switched from independent to Democrat to support Bernie, and have put in several thousand hours since 2015 organizing and fundraising for various Democratic candidates or leftist projects. The Democrats turned out to be a bad investment of that time, and I sometimes wonder if Bernie thinks the same thing.
No I don’t think any of the existing parties are sufficient (DSA or greens).
Working Families Party
nah. New party. No prior art to contend with
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/live/lrZpiylf4nA
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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please google “uncommitted movement”; virtually every assertion you make here is false.
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I link to search engines all the time am I a bot?
Or am I trying to show you multiple sources so that you can judge and make your own decisions?
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Are you not intelligent enough to make your own decisions?
Do you need them spoonfed to you?
Personally, I thought you were an adult, but this conversation is proving otherwise.
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are you okay
Beep boop fuck off
No, I sure don’t. Talking endless shit about Biden will affect more than the primary.
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Bias is a concept that applies to entities who would possibly be neutral, such as judiciary or journalists. I’m neither and my opinion isn’t about bias: It’s my opinion. Yes, I do believe Republicans would be worse than Democrats on every single issue possible, and a Democratic administration might actually do some helpful things.
Yes, I do believe Republicans would be worse than Democrats on every single issue possible, and a Democratic administration might actually do some helpful things.
Which literally has nothing to do with also holding Democrats feet to the fire and expecting them to do better.
Bias is a thing that applies to everyone, it’s also a social thing, not just a legal thing. If your bias makes it so you don’t actually listen to what other people are saying, then that is impacting you and others socially.
I have very much listened to what people are saying and I’ve discussed in in detail with dozens of people recently. Saying I have an anti-Trump bias is incorrect as it’s based on clear logic, experience and very good reasons. I don’t have any particular love for Biden or Democrats.
Yes, hold Democrats feet to the fire and expect them to do better. Asking for election reform and supporting better primary candidates would be a great idea. Giving Biden a bunch of one-sided unfair criticism and calling him braindead shit like ‘genocide joe’ or “both parties are fascism!!” is not how to do it right now.
The effect may be to change the Democrats’ behavior, but it’;s too late in the race. What do you expect them to do, find a different candidate? The main effect would be to discourage otherwise Biden voters from voting at all, campaigning for him, saying positive things about him online, or to vote for third parties. Guess who that helps? I have a really hard time believing that everyone saying these things doesn’t understand that, especially when the same people somehow have very little criticism for the actual fascist in the race. If you want to think my saying “I really don’t want that lecherous, dishonest, incoherent, greedy, soulless criminal imbecile and his pack of nazis and looters back in the White House” is the result of bias, then okay.
I don’t expect them to do anything other than maybe be honest with themselves that Netanyahu isn’t operating good faith, and hasn’t been for thirty years. He’s a known quantity. He moaned about Obama’s peace deal with Iran and loved it when Trump nuked it. He has been claiming Iran is “three years away” from a nuclear weapon for literally fucking thirty years. He was instrumental in arguing that the US should invade Iraq and the lie that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and was somehow tangentially related to 9/11. Why are we trusting Netanyahu of all people? To me it almost feels orchestrated by Netanyahu to fuck Biden in the general because he knew Biden would kowtow. They had warning about October 7th a year in fucking advance, including warning from US intelligence. Fucking convenient, huh? Netanyahu is and has been a genocidal maniac, so a chance to help his buddy Trump and also help himself to US weaponry probably seemed like a fucking No Brainer.
I’m going to vote for fucking Biden in the general because I’m not an idiot. I don’t spend a whole shitload of time critiquing Trump of all people because dude I’m old I’ve hated that worthless obese piece of shit since the 1980’s when he was the butt of jokes in fucking Bloom County.[1] If you don’t already know why that dude is a dangerous maladjusted loser, you’re not getting sold otherwise by now. Why would I rant on and on about it when I’m fucking furious that Merrick fucking Garland has been slow walking this shit, literally waiting until Trump became so belligerent with protected secrets that he had to start an investigation. If I talk about that shit too much, it’ll give me a fucking heart attack because he’s a walking talking abomination that is proof in the pudding of a two tiered justice system that is too pussy and incapable of fucking jailing the fucker. And no offense, Democrat decisions like not prosecuting Bush for fucking war crimes when they had the chance plays into why they feel like they can’t touch Trump. We wouldn’t even step up for fucking war crimes. Further, Merrick Garland himself was another example trying to “work with” Republicans and all it has done is fuck us in the ass. We need an AG with balls, not this fucking pussy.
“Donald Trump is accidentally and fatally injured by the anchor of his own yacht. Incredibly, surgeons turn to Bill the Cat as a donor body in which to insert Trump’s still-living brain. Trapped in Bill’s body, Trump finds himself disinherited from his financial empire and estranged from his wife Ivana. With nowhere else to turn, he takes Bill’s place in the Bloom County boarding house, making unsuccessful attempts to start from scratch and occasionally being given equally unsuccessful lessons on the value of life by Opus. This eventually culminates in Trump regaining power and using it to buy out Bloom County, firing the entire staff of characters in the process.” ↩︎
Talking endless shit about Biden will affect more than the primary.
i agree! and so does the uncommitted movement. that’s why a third party or uncommitted vote will not be called after the primary. the shit talking will generally end as soon as the primaries are over, regardless of the outcome.
you seem to be here in good faith so i encourage you to look more into what the uncommitted movement is thinking. these aren’t stupid folks and they well understand the concerns which you bring up and are strategizing within that very framework. perhaps you will be led to interrogate assumptions you had previously made, perhaps not. :)
I find it pretty unlikely the one sided criticism of the Democratic Party and politicians will end after the primary, and you’re ignoring that not everyone receiving these messages is on board with your theory. Oh, he’s “genocide joe” only til the primary is done, then vote for him! And meanwhile you’re going to continue strangely never saying anything critical or realistic about Trump and Republicans, right?
i agree, genocide joe is kind of a dumbass nickname.
and you’re wrong, watch: trump, if elected, will go fucking balls to the wall in “finishing” the genocide. trump is a genocidal freak and biden is only slightly better because democrats may have the opportunity to sway him.
so hopefully that teaches you to make assumptions lol
Okay, great. We agree about that at least. I’m being pragmatic about the election. Pressuring Democrats about Palestine is great, but do we want to help Palestinians? Getting Trump elected will not do that, and the only way to prevent it at this point, short of buying him 10,000 hamberders, is supporting Biden, even though he’s not most people’s ideal candidate.
If you don’t want to hear people shit-talking Biden then you need to either avoid politics altogether or stick to a filter bubble that doesn’t tolerate such criticism.
Who said the issue was I don’t want to hear it? I’m here discussing it. My point is that it’s counterproductive, unfair, and likely to lead to worse outcomes for the US and the entire world. The #1 issue is “gEnOcIdE jOe” which is kind of ridiculous given that not just Biden but 90% of the US political establishment supported the same policies, AND we’ll end up getting genocide Donald, who will throw away Ukraine, run his own genocide on Central Americans in the US, do the same but worse in Israel (Trump recently said Israel should “finish the job”). Hmm, but maybe some people prefer one of those things.
My point is that it’s counterproductive, unfair, and likely to lead to worse outcomes for the US and the entire world.
Seems pretty productive to me, we haven’t even finished the primaries yet and the sudden drop in support has pushed Biden from “Humanitarian pause” to openly calling for a temporary ceasfire.
At this rate he might even call for a permanemt ceasefire and halt weapons shipments to Israel in time for the general election, but if we don’t let the party know they need to change then they won’t.
The #1 issue is “gEnOcIdE jOe” which is kind of ridiculous given that not just Biden but 90% of the US political establishment supported the same policies,
Seems like its long past time to stop supporting 90% of the political establishment, then.
maybe some people prefer one of those things.
Admitting that the American public is willing to support genocide out of fear that the wrong genocider might take power is the first step towards changing our political system to send war criminals to the hague instead of the white house.
I saw the ‘undecided’ crowd (which was a concept that came after criticizing Biden and discouraging voters for months) credited themselves with him making that decision, though I doubt it was the only influence. It’s been kind of apparent that political opponents have been using that as an issue against Biden and it is pretty unpopular, not to mention generally wrong, so of course he should change policy. I think they can figure that out themselves too.
Well, if you have figured out a way to stop AIPAC from influencing US politics, great! It’s only been about 80 years of sending them billions of dollars in weapons and arms each year. The idea that Americans are going to send their own politicians to international criminal court in the EU is pretty far-fetched. I’d start with Bush, Rice and Cheney personally.
And most people aren’t saying you need to vote for Biden in the primary. They’re talking about the general.
yes, for the love of all that is holy vote for biden in the general 🫠🙏🙏
So if you get that, then why are you blatantly misrepresenting the discussion?
you have it backwards. here is a list of comments which were blatantly misrepresenting the uncommitted movement. i am seeking to correct that misrepresentation.
Do you have context for those comments to show they are misrepresenting the uncommitted movement?
All of those comments appear to be talking about the general.
the post was removed by mods and was a meme showcasing the percent of voters who had voted “uncommitted” in the primaries. unfortunately i didn’t get a local copy of the meme before it was taken down.
I agree that Biden is a piece of shit, but if you don’t vote for that piece of shit, then you’ll end up with an even worse piece of shit. Don’t even think that you’re “sending him a message” by not voting or voting third party.
It absolutely sucks that things are like this, but sometimes you have to vote for a genocidal cunt to prevent an even worse genocidal cunt from getting elected, even if it makes you feel bad. Trump becoming the new president would only make things worse for you, and for Palestine, and for Ukraine.
you misunderstand what the primaries are. check out the post body text and the other threads here for an explanation.
Third party and proud gang. A key reason we’re in this mess is because people keep voting for the same two wolves.
Genuinely not true. Our electoral system more or less requires two candidates de facto to function - it is not a failure of the commons, it’s a failure of the systems of government. We need ranked choice voting, at which point we can actually begin to meaningfully remove ourselves from this insanity and have more than two de facto political parties.
Voting third party is the same as not voting in the United States under our current system.
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You cant vote your way out of a system that isnt designed for you to manipulate. They wont let a third party candidate get even close. We arent here because we voted our way here when the electoral college decides the election.
Gross. Don’t make this sub about this. We can be anti genocide without being pro religious extremist. This reads as pro republican propoganda - no one needs that.
196 stands with Palestine —literally the mods of this community
please self-examine as to why you read religious extremism into a pro-democrat, anti-genocide post.
The comic you posted doesn’t match what your post says.
you aren’t the first to say so. any thoughts of a better way to write it?
i have creator’s bias so i readily admit it may not be the best in rhetorical quality even though i thought it was good enough to post originally
Get rid of it because it doesn’t apply to the primaries and if you apply it to the general election you sound like you are trying to astroturf the election.
get rid of it
no, sorry :(
it doesn’t apply to the primaries
how so? it says it does right there, and all my linked sources are about the primaries as well.
and if you apply it to the general election
well, don’t then. i certainly don’t want you to
The people you depict as the angry villagers are saying that because a third party vote or abstaining is effectively a vote for Trump.
No one’s saying that about the primaries because Trump can’t win the Democrat primaries.
unfortunately i have seen multiple people say exactly that about the primaries, so that’s the rub. maybe you haven’t, and i certainly don’t think the angry mob represents you. but saying that no one has ever said that is unfortunately untrue, and exactly the misinformation i posted this meme to combat. :)
hoping you can just know that this meme wasn’t aimed at you and move on
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This shit is just spam at this point
Do dead kids in Gaza make tasty spam? I usually only get it pork based
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I used to believe Democrats when they said stuff like “unlike Republicans, we accept valid criticism of our politicians”
But they’ve really gone out of their way to disprove this. Their treament of Palestinians and immigrants at the southern border inspires no confidence that they will protect my rights as a LGBTQ+ person. They’d run me over with a tank if it were politically convenient.
Nancy Pelosi: “We’re capitalists, and that’s just the way it is.”
This was an important admission on her part. Corporations didn’t start accepting women, racial minorities, LGBTQ+ and the disabled by hiring them and marketing to them because they had some epiphany that these people were all humans who had intrinsic value simply from existing and being human, and as such they deserved respect. No, of course not, the reason they started accepting the “untouchables” was because their abject greed outweighed their bigotry. They wanted our money. The only color they actually care about is green. Capitalists never changed their minds or their bigotry, they just decided that making more money was worth it to hire women and blacks and gays and to also market to them so their paychecks would be recycled right back into the capitalist coffers.
There was a wild story the other day where someone actually did say this out loud.
“As a tourist community, I want to shake every tourist upside down by their ankles to get money out of them,” he said. “Therefore, we should be open and inclusive of everyone, and everyone should feel comfortable to come here and spend their money.”
The real issue is that the majority of Democrats (especially the ones at the national level) are Corporate Democrats who absolutely have internalized all this. It’s why you got Nancy Pelosi doing useless fucking performative bullshit like kneeling while wearing Kente Cloths while real legislation is somehow always on the backburner or has some Blue Dog fuckwit blocking it. It seems the party always has a convenient scapegoat like Joe Manchin for why we can’t pass worthwhile shit when Democrats have a majority. (Last time around it was Joe Leiberman)
Thankfully, local races are not as abysmal and Democrats on the local level and at least in my area, the Democrats are progressive as hell. The national party is in a incompetent corporate death grip, and they are unlikely to let go any time soon. The national party has been bought and paid for by people who never cared we existed to begin with, they just wanted our cash.
Further, we’re in a no-win scenario. We either accept the abuse at the hands of the Democrats who are holding Trump and fascism over our heads like a cudgel to force us to vote for them even we don’t agree with what they’re doing or we accept that Democracy in America is Over and that Dictator Trump will take the reigns. The most maddening part about all of it is the implicit admission from the national Democratic Party that they will do nothing to stop Donald Trump because they don’t actually care about us, the citizens they supposedly represent. They will berate us if Trump wins, tell us we didn’t vote hard enough, and that it’s all our fault, while they quickly skip the country to avoid being fucking blackbagged and murdered by Trump Thugs. They’re more than happy to let us suffer the consequences while they skirt them, like always. Why?
“We’re capitalists, and that’s just the way it is.”
at least in my area, the Democrats are progressive as hell
As someone who lives in South Dakota, I envy you. The Democrats here tend to be even worse than Pelosi. They’re Blue Dog through and through.
I’ve considered running locally myself, but my “radical” beliefs would definitely be exposed, and I don’t want my husband to deal with the death threats. That, and my work schedule.
To be clear, I agree with everything you’ve said. You are quite a bit more articulate than I am.
As always, it’s hard to separate legitimate and necessary criticism from assholes taking any excuse to talk shit. The latter will amplify and exaggerate whatever the former says.
Bad faith is just a bitch and a half to deal with.
Wholly agree with your point.
Off topic: why is the B word the only swear censored on blahaj.zone? I’ve noticed it in other communities from there and most, if not all other swears are safe.
B: removed Fuck shit ass cock dick pussy cunt
Either someone got mad for being called a B or they’ve got some conflicting thoughts on what justifies swearing and censorship.
Edit: might not be just blahaj, but that only extends my confusion.
As further testing: bitching, bitchin’, bitchass, bitchface, biiitch, biiiiitch, binch, bongo.
edit: You’re on lemmy.ml, my guy. Pretty sure they censor a bunch of nonsense.
real
Yes, I’m sure that if the democrats lose and Trump gets elected because people demonize Biden everything will get better in Palestine. Get real. Now’s not the time to be an idealist.
a fair and pragmatic outlook!
just don’t stoop to accusing the people who choose to do an uncommitted vote of being fascist or spreading FUD and we are good 👍
If you want to vote uncommitted, that’s on you. If you’re trying to delegitimize Biden by arguing that he’s complicit in genocide in open forum, you’re trying to hand the presidential election to fascists.
good thing i am not and will never do the second thing.
donald j trump is a white supremacist and has openly vowed that he will “finish” the genocide in gaza if given the opportunity.
Instead of doing aid packages, Trump would drop bombs disguised as aid.
Both Israel and Palestine countries are led by killing psychos.
There, i said it.
You can ban me now.
You mean Gaza? AFAIK the Palestine Authority considers Hamas criminals.
some where in there is Israel and we might need a fourth spiderman for maybe the US.
You only have 2 on this conversation. AFAIK, the Palestine Authority does not engage in terrorism and persecutes it criminally.
So, well, you can pick any one for the other party you want to add.
and the us! all three
isn’t that just wonderful
edit: as others pointed out, Hamas =/= Palestine. so maybe look into why you are equating those two 🫤
This really shouldn’t be such a controversial take. Every side of this conflict fucking sucks, and they’ve all sucked for decades. Israel sucks for electing a fascist, Palestine sucks due to being religious fundamentalists, the U.S. sucks for doing all this in the first place and building Israel up as a superpower in the region, and all the surrounding Middle Eastern powers suck because they claim a Free Palestine is a priority while doing fuck-all to support it. Even if a miracle ceasefire is called, there is no geopolitical will for a Free Palestine, so Israel will just do this again in 10 years once their stockpiles are replenished.
There’s no such thing as a good state. All states gradually trend toward fascism, at varying rates. But this quote from “Anarchism and Its Aspirations” by Cindy Milstein really helped me parse situations like this, especially since it cites Palestine as an example:
If we understand this sense of negative and positive freedom, what appears as a contradictory stance within anarchism makes perfect sense. An anarchist might firmly believe that the Palestinian people deserve to be liberated from occupation, even if that means that they set up their own state. That same anarchist might also firmly believe that a Palestinian state, like all states, should be opposed in favor of nonstatist institutions. A complete sense of freedom would always include both the negative and positive senses—in this case, liberation from occupation and simultaneously the freedom to self-determine. Otherwise, as both actually existing Communist and liberal regimes have demonstrated, “freedom from” on its own will serve merely to enslave human potentiality, and at its most extreme, humans themselves; self-governance is denied in favor of a few governing over others. And “freedom to,” on its own, as capitalism has shown, will serve merely to promote egotistic individualism and pit each against each; self-determination trumps notions of collective good. Constantly working to bring both liberation and freedom to the table, within moments of resistance and reconstruction, is part of that same juggling act of approximating an increasingly differentiated yet more harmonious world.
She is a treasure and that quote makes perfect sense to me. I loved her “Try Anarchism for Life” book.
I’ve got that on my reading list!
look at this motherfucker and his both sidesing JAQing off lol /s
I’d use “ruled” instead of “led”.
If the conclusion translates to way stricter conditions for aid (rolling back settlements, carving out pathways for aid, etc.) you won’t get called fascist. If your conclusion is to let Trump into office, you are.
The first take is also a problem.
Genocide has a specific definition. The term is probably not applicable to Gaza, and doesn’t have to be. A humanitarian crisis also leads to the above mentioned conclusion. Starting to call everything a Genocide that is nowhere near that level primarily has two effects:
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First it shuts down any debate about what is happening and what actions to take as a consequence. People who don’t agree with the application of the term “genocide” will see you conspiracy theorists or similar. People who agree will write off all arguments as genocide denial. Stunlocking all processes that could lead to action.
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Secondly, and most importantly, it muddles the term. Genocide doesn’t seem that bad if Israel is doing one or even Canada. While it does draw attention to your current issues, it simultaneously downplays actual recognized genocides.
An example of the second Point is, that a lot of people calling it a genocide are calling for aid to stop and NOT immediate intervention in the ONGOING genocide. Which would be a more appropriate reaction to genocide.
It honestly feels like a psy-op by Trumpels. How is your solution to this Conflict getting Trump - who is all the way on Israels side - into office? The man is one of the reasons for this situation, by cutting aid, by initiating the Abraham Accords, where “The plight of the Palestinians was an afterthought, if even that.”
Genious idea, I see no way that can go wrong.
it simultaneously downplays actual recognized genocides
Tell me you don’t understand the extent of what Israel is doing without telling me you don’t understand the extent of what Israel is doing.
spoiler
I’ma head out tho so I don’t get another strongly worded message in my inbox from the mods
Please do a small service for yourself and educate yourself on what’s going on in Gaza. Actual fucking Holocaust survivors have spoken against it. Israel is trying to get rid of Palestinians, and every day the already thin veil comes off more and more.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
Israel is definitely complicit in genocide
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group… Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent …
The intent is probably the most important part of this definition and I don’t believe that Israel fulfills that part. There are extensive measures taken to prevent civilian deaths. However this is still a war, in which civilians die.
There are also rules about human shields which defines using human shields as “… intentional co-location of military objectives and civilians …”. Which Hamas has undeniably been doing.
The burden to keep civilians out of military targets falls to the governing authority, which is Hamas.
It is important to recognize, that all these rules around war are designed to protect some groups (civilians) while still allowing for military operations. The problem is, that if these rules were to prevent nations from pursuing military objectives, because the other party commits war crimes (such as using human shields) nobody would follow these laws.
For that reason civilians kind of loose most protections when used as human shields (§3). As well as proportionally laws taking effect, that permit civilian harm to an extend if it is necessary to pursue proportionally valuable military objectives.
THAT DOESN’T MEAN IT’S NOT BAD, just probably not illegal under international law. It is reasonable to demand change and to condemn Israel on moral grounds however. Personally I also believe Israel needs to do some big changes in regards to settlements and humanitarian aid. But also the status quo needed to change. I don’t understand Hamas’ goal, they obviously will never win. Idk why they are refusing ceasefire agreements etc. I understand resentment against Israel, but let’s be real, their negotiating power just becomes less and less.
And obviously everything needs to be investigated, but I don’t know if any damming convictions actually come from this.
Blocking food aide at the borders and targeting hospitals with precise missile strikes isn’t intentional? That’s a stretch.
The more I read it, the more I agree with you. The other part of genocide is you must prove intent to eliminate more than just a political group. Right now the Israeli are killing a lot of innocent people, but they keep saying their goal is to eliminate Hamas, not Gaza. They know what they’re doing, and likely chose that language to avoid being accused of genocide.
You could take that to mean that Ukraine is committing genocide against the Russians because they are “destroying a national group in part” by “killing members of the group.” Literally any warfare would be defined as genocide under this. It’s utterly meaningless and needs to be better defined.
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Dialectics people! Biden is complicit in genocide, and far fewer lives are endangered under him than Trump. Biden winning doesn’t guarantee life, and we must vote for him to have a CHANCE at living. Even if we survive, I wouldn’t call most of it living.
Standard neoliberal and conservative behavior, what a time to be alive
I most certainly don’t. Neither do I stand with Israel nor the USA.
I sure wish I knew about the uncommitted movement before election day.
good news! depending on your state, it hasn’t happened yet.
locking this post. It’s causing more discourse than our team can handle.
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