- NTSync coming in Kernel 6.11 for better Wine/Proton game performance and porting.
- Wine-Wayland last 4/5 parts left to be merged before end of 2024
- Wayland HDR/Game color protocol will be finished before end of 2024
- Nvidia 555/560 will be out for a perfect no stutter Nvidia performance
- KDE/Gnome reaching stability and usability with NO FKN ADS
- VR being usable
- More Wine development and more Games being ported
- Better LibreOffice/Word compatibility
- Windows 10 coming to EOL
- Improved Linux simplicity and support
- Web-native apps (Including Msft Office and Adobe)
- .Net cross platform (in VSCode or Jetbrains Rider)
What else am I missing?
Here’s the hilarious reality:
I installed Fedora Workstation on a laptop yesterday, just to check out how that’s going.
I’m probably reverting it to Windows because there is no tool to adjust the scroll speed of the touchpad.
And that’s what that takes.
This is exactly the kind of issue that the average person might deal with, or it will be a deal breaker and they’ll never try again. Even if you can customize something via a config file, the average user will never do that. If there is no easy GUI in a normal location (like system settings) for something they want to adjust, it might as well not exist.
Average users either will accept all the inconveniences, or none. If it is more inconvenient than what they are used to right off the bat, they will go back and never try again.
To be clear, I’m far from the average user. I’ve installed Linux on my PCs many times over multiple decades. I’m looking at a RedHat installation CD that was printed in a different century right now. I’m way more tech-savvy and platform-agnostic than the average Windows user.
And even I went “wait, GNOME hasn’t figured out mousewheels and touchpads in 25 years? Yeah, nope, I’m out”.
Desktop Linux is a hobby for hobbyists. If you think troubleshooting that stuff, customizing your setup and distro-hopping for fun are engaging things to do on your PC it’s a good time. If in the process of doing that you set it up just like you want it the performance, stability and compatibility aren’t terrible. By the time I hit those annoyances I had a mostly working setup. Audio was fine, iGPU was fine, touchscreen was fine, performance and responsiveness were better than Windows, manufacturer software alternatives were installed and mostly working.
But if you just want a computer that works any one of these roadblocks is a dealbreaker. Going online and seeing the related drama (posts complaining that GNOME devs will close issues about this out of personal preference or spite, hacky half-solutions, arguments about whether this is a real issue or how much better/worse other platforms or distros are) the entire ecosystem seems less than serious and definitely not sustainable for any device you need for user-level, reliable use.
Ditto. I set up my first triple boot (win/mac/linux, fun times) system 2 decades ago. I was a teen then with all the time in the world to dive into this stuff. Now? I just want something that works and doesn’t consume a free day whenever I want to customise a new option. If Linux is too user-unfriendly for me, good luck with the average user.
Linux is like democracy. It’s the worst OS except for all the others that exist.
I’ve been a Gnome fanboy for years, after initially disliking the shift between 2 and 3.
I dipped into Plasma when 6.0 came out and I’m mad that I didn’t try sooner.
It’s the exact opposite of your experience, about Gnome not having scroll wheel speed adjustment. “Wait, other DEs had figured this out? For how long??”
There was so much I’d just put up with, thinking that if Gnome hadn’t figured it out, nobody had.
KDE is something I can set up on friends’ computers and walk away, confident that it wouldn’t give them any trouble.
that (and many other irritants) is why I switched to plasma. please try it before going back, it’s way better in every regard.
I may because I’m clearly an outlier and it’s a bit of an experiment now, but…
… you realize how just saying that is an absolute dealbreaker for Linux, right?
I mean, if you’re a base Windows user trying Linux for the first time, it is arcane gibberish. If you’re just trying to get a working computer it’s a major hassle. If you’re, like me, a grumpy old fart, you’re getting flashbacks of sitting in front of a Pentium-133 doing this exact exercise of flipping back and forth across environments and bumping against different frustrations on each and just can’t believe this is still the feedback you’re getting online this many decades later.
absolutely. I have a list as long as my arm of irritants that are 99% just the absence of sane defaults. I’m not saying that’s what’s deterring people from switching over, but it’s not helping either, is it?
every DE, distro, whatevs I install, I try to imagine what this looks like to a non-techie, how would a random grams deal with this… and it’s not looking good.
apple has a vertically integrated tech stack and are free to focus their sinister efforts elsewhere; they don’t have to dick around with 15 different DEs and 27 WMs, 50 teams pulling in 127 different directions, abandoned paths and duplicated efforts galore. just imagine where The Linux Desktop would be at if we had just one DE/WM and all devs would pull in the same direction…
I don’t have the answer. it’s chaos over here and out of that chaos eventually some order emerges. it’s unquestionable that shit’s way better than five years ago, let alone 10 or more… but it’s so slow and wasteful and it pains me that I see no other option.
meanwhile this (hey, try this shit out) is the best we as users can do; I know I regarded KDE/Plasma for the longest time as something clunky and un-serious and whatnot - I couldn’t have been more wrong. things that are outright deal-breakers (like the years-long refusal to implement scroll speed in Gnome) are handled beautifully over there, and then some.
Yeah, honestly given the time this has been at play I’m surprised nobody has tried to do that type of full control integration besides Google. Given how well ChromeOS and especially Android worked as platforms why hasn’t… I don’t know, Valve? Adobe? Apple, even? tried to create a major desktop PC take on Linux that does have the type of support and sensible UX you want out of the box?
It’s probably too late now that MS is hell-bent into turning Windows into that sort of platform, but there was a period of time there, probably during the Win8 debacle or the early parts of Win10 where you could have come up with a “big boy ChromeOS” take that would have gotten this done. It’s nuts that Valve only got as far as doing the basics of SteamOS and then failed to deliver on their promises of wider support before the community basically turned installing that into the same kind of nightmare every other distro is.
Well, no, that’s not applicable here. I’m suggesting a proprietary, corporate-backed desktop default in the way we have a proprietary, corporate-backed laptop reference in ChromeOS, a corporate-backed mobile reference in Android and a proprietary, corporate-backed handheld default in SteamOS.
It’s not about covering everyone’s use cases, it’s about applying commercial priorities and funding to one specific use case.
I mean, you know the Linux community craves that opportunity, because the amount of hype around SteamOS when that dropped on the Deck was insane, and despite their clear lack of interest in expanding it into a Windows alternative for other product types there’s been no pushback in those circles.
But how does that differ from Fedora or Ubuntu, besides popularity?
That’s a fair point. I suppose conceptually that’s what those organizations were trying to do. So it’s a failure in execution which then probably acts as a deterrent for other corporations considering stepping up to challenge MS on modular desktop PCs, which aren’t that big of a market in the first place.
I guess if you were going to do that you’d pair it to rigid hardware instead for that reason and at that point you’re Apple and we’re talking about MacOS.
This is something people fail to realize, and I think part of it is because Linux people tend to surround themselves with other Linux people.
I have been helping my friend get into Linux, we picked a sensible distro, fedora, with the default gnome spin. He loves the UI, great.
But there is a random problem with his microphone, everything is garbled, I can’t recreate it on my hardware and it’s unclear.
He reads guides and randomly inputs terminal commands, things get borked, he re installs, cycle continues.
He tries a different distro, microphone works, but world of Warcraft is funky with lutris, so no go.
The result is, all of this shit just works on windows, and it just doesn’t on Linux. Progress has been made in compatibility, but, for example, there was a whole day of learning just about x vs Wayland and not actually getting to use the computer. For someone who has never opened a terminal before, something as simple to you and I as adding a package repo is completely gibberish
Yes you can learn all of this, but to quote this friend who has been trying Linux for the past two weeks “I’m just gonna re install windows and go back to living my life after work”
When you have 20 years of understanding windows, you need to be nearly 1 to 1 with that platform to get people to switch.
It’s not about being 1:1. I have used Android, iOS, MacOS and a bunch of other systems. Most of those have been easy to adapt. In fact, like your friend, I prefer the GNOME look because the MacOS-ish UI feels fun and fresh after being on Windows for so long.
It’s the ratio of troubleshooting versus usage and the lack of definitive resolution for things.
FWIW, I just went back to Windows, not because I found the terminal commands hard to grasp (I started working with computers in the 80s, I’m not intimidated by a command line), but because they often didn’t match what tutorials said, or because something that didn’t work didn’t generate an error and simply did nothing, or because something just randomly stopped working for no reason and just dangled there, broken, indefinitely.
Say what you will about how haphazardly Windows is architected, but most of the time if something breaks it’s a matter of either installing the right thing, uninstalling the right thing, finding the right setting or reinstalling the OS. That sense of rebuilding your bike as you ride on it that Linux still forces upon you is just so friction-heavy, and the failstate of it is so frustrating. There’s a reason why a dedicated Android or ChromeOS for your hardware feels just fine but desktop Linux is untenable for 90% of users, and it’s not the 1:1 parity with Windows.
Fedora is considering switching to Plasma by default.
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Fedora-Change-KDE-Default-Prop
Many big maintainers are working hard to make the experience better for the average user. Things are getting better.
As a person that also went “screw it, I’m going back to Windows 95” for the exact same reasons in a previous millenium…
…no they aren’t.
This isn’t new, this has been the way this works for decades. Sure, there have been improvements, but also plenty of steps backwards. This run at it has been a noticeably worse experience than, say, being told about Ubuntu and being surprised at it having a smooth installer for the first time. Sure, gaming then was a no-go, but with PC hardware being a much narrower path then, it was so much easier to get the hardware itself running.
And yes, it was about to be the year of Linux desktop then, too.
Yep. To me it was the lack of a working fingerprint reader.
Honestly, I am so tempted to ditch Linux because of minor issues like this. No autoscroll on scroll wheel, no option for mono audio, etc etc. I do not want to set up a million scripts to customise my experience, I want the options to be there by default. If MS wasn’t screwing the pooch I probably would have moved back at some point.
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All of those things have nothing to do with GNU/Linux and everything with the desktop environment you chose.
It doesn’t matter.
If a first time user installs any random combination of distro and desktop environment and they can’t get it all to work smoothly right away with zero effort they will never use any flavor of Linux ever again.
That’s how much of a chance to secure a user you have for a software platform or OS. Less than one. Any amount of troubleshooting during FTUE is a user gone forever. The solution to any amount of friction is “Install Windows” or “return this laptop and go buy a Macbook Air”.
None of that is unreasonable. Those are perfectly reasonable expectations and reactions to these issues.
I’m on Mint, which is one of the most-recommended distros to newbs around. Good luck persuading new users that they should change their distro every time they run into an issue like this. However you may choose to word it, these are exactly the issues that will stop widespread adoption.
Also, I’d like to know which distro actually supports autoscroll.
I highly suggest windows for both of you. If minor issues like this bother you while major issues like data collection and ad pushing dont and you dont want to participate in making linux better by submitting bug reports then linux may just not be for you.
Its very much like owning a house or a ranch. You‘re free of others and can do whatever you like. But you do have to do your own maintenance.
If you want to go back paying rent for a shoebox apartment, thats your choice.
And that’s exactly why it will never be the year of the Linux desktop… you know, the claim of this entire post.
Unless Linux appeals to the lowest common denominator, like Windows, it will never become a major replacement.
Small apartments will always be the norm. You are right. :)
As I pointed out, I’m using it because MS is screwing the pooch with those issues.
These are known issues, and have been around for more than a decade. They’re not bugs, they’re missing basic features. But sure, go ahead and assume stuff.
It’s probably closer to renting a apartment vs owning a shack (or it was, before said screwing of said pooch). You can upgrade it into a mansion if you want, but that’s not where you start.
Fair enough
Then make a fork and or PR. i‘m only around two years and I make the stuff I need.
As a human does since your small text can never have full information needed to know everything. For the sake of discussing things I have to either ask and widen the scope of the discussion or I assume where it seems appropriate and you correct me if I‘m wrong. Sorry if that is new to you.
If thats your opinion I‘d like to own a „shack“ because in germany, where I live, the houses even need maintenance and repairs if you buy them.
A more classic example of linux users pushing others away, I could not have come up with.
“I have so-and-so issue”
“Fork the OS and fix it yourself!”
Yeah, no. I already spend 8 hours a day programming, I’d like my free time to be spent elsewhere, thanks.
I‘m a tech myself and I know this discussion from 100 times this has occured.
But yeah, good luck mate.
I refer you back to my original statement. I was not asking how to do something. I was grousing that basic tasks are extremely user-unfriendly to configure. I’ve fixed it on my computer. That’s not the topic under discussion.
What proper channels? We’re in a post claiming it’s the YOTLD again, because OP apparently doesn’t realise it’s been claimed every year for the last couple decades. I’m posting about why that’s not gonna happen this year either.
I could fix it. However, I have no intention of opening a PR and spending what little free time I have contributing to open source (I’ll contribute money, but not my time). Kudos to those who do write and maintain open source, but that’s not for me.
I think you can see how we’ve diverged into entirely different directions already.
I can see your point and appreciate you elaborating.
You do see that you went there, right?
The “make a fork” thing is part of the issue, I think. In general there’s this culture in the open source community that if you want a feature, you should implement it yourself and not expect the maintainers to implement it for you. And that’s good advice to some extent, it’s great to encourage more people to volunteer and it’s great to discourage entitlement.
But on the other hand, this is toxic because not everyone can contribute. Telling non-technical users to “make it yourself” is essentially telling them to fuck off. To use the house metaphor, people don’t usually need to design and renovate their houses on their own, because that’s not their skillset, and it’s unreasonable to expect that anyone who wants a house should become an architect.
Even among technical users, there are reasons they can’t contribute. Not everyone has time to contribute to FOSS, and that’s especially notable for non-programmers who would have to get comfortable with writing code and contributing in the first place.
I appreciate you elaborating on this. Let me try and explain this:
Imo you’re on point with the house metaphor. People dont have the skills to redesign and repair their house.
Thats why they pay people to do it. They get a carpenter to fix their floor, a painter to fresh up the outside walls, an electrician to fix that damn outlet thats acting up. Some house owners have to forgo vacations because they need repairs done this season. They also spread out repairs and live with a broken thing in between.
And the same works for software. I dont mind fixing something in your software, as long as you pay me. Part of the problem is that companies made people believe that everything can be perfect and free. Its like Odysseus going insane by the song of the mermaids. Its a trap. Real software isnt perfect.
Next point is people cant controbute:
People can always contribute. Not everyone can code but they can press the report button and try to be concise in describing the problem, they can help translating, they can help packaging if they know their way around files and much more. The issue is that its uncomfortable to do something while we are used to getting paid for most things and also are used to get perfect proprietary software.
Again, thanks for answering and have a good one.
GNOME is bad. Abandon GNOME. If you like the UI of Windows, try KDE Plasma 6. It’s much more feature rich than GNOME and very customizable too. And touchpad speed can be adjusted in the System Settings application.
I mean, it is, but part of the appeal with the stock GNOME was how streamlined and un-Windows-like it was. I tried moving to KDE but, honestly, it does feel a bit worse to use.
Not that it matters, because eventually a bunch of other more fundamental unsupported features made me switch back instead. Couldn’t get the Nvidia dGPU to work and messed things up enough in the process that I’d have to start over, which is a dealbreaker. Plus it turns out that the suspend/restore functionality was completely broken and the hardware volume buttons were partially broken.
So yeah, no, I’m back to Windows now.
I run Fedora Kinoite on my work laptop and this is what the system settings look like. If GNOME can’t do that, then it indeed seems like a massive flaw.
It doesn’t, and it can’t. Also can’t do any UI scaling between 100 and 200% out of the box. There are some astounding gaps in it for how long it’s been around.