The show’s good btw…
Capable? Yes. Willing? No.
Could not have said it better.
If a civilization chooses not to be civil … why call it a civilization?
That’s just not how language really works, Axl.
Me fail English? … That’s unpossible
Because they have civilians
I think Capable should be downgraded to a Maybe at this point…
I disliked the books and haven’t tried to watch the show.
But I think I disagree that our civilization is no longer capable of solving it’s own problems. Rather, I think our civilization is going through one of the crappy parts of common cycles that civilizations go through. Frighteningly, this part usually comes right before really scary crappy parts.
Civilizations aren’t static and the patterns don’t always happen the same way, but I think we can predict that
-
Things get really shitty. People pull together for survival and build to a place of stability and prosperity.
-
The rich and powerful (being short sighted idiots just like the rest of us, but ALSO insulated from and out of touch with reality), start looting society for their own selfish, short term benefit. This destabilizes the institutions and systems creating the stability and prosperity. The population at large doesn’t really understand what’s happening or why, but they DO know that while they’re still relatively comfortable, they’re scared and they don’t like it. They get more conservative and eventually turn to fascists, strongmen and authoritarians to try to get stability back.
-
This doesn’t work out. It exacerbates the existing problems, makes things even more scary and less stable. Eventually war and rebellion break out.
-
When the dust settles, things are really shitty. People pull together for survival and build back to a place of stability and prosperity.
These steps aren’t exact. They’re trends. Lots of things can disrupt them (including famine, plague and barbarian invasions). But in step 1/4, we (humans) are actually REALLY good at collectively solving problems. In step 2 we’re TERRIBLE at collectively doing anything. In step 3 we (collectively) are trying to solve all the WRONG problems… then back to step 1/4.
We seem to globally be right at the tail end of step 2. Which SUCKS.
tl:dr; This has all happened before and will surely happen again. Hostile aliens are just a modern take on the “barbarian invasion” disrupter. Beware of strangers bearing gifts.
Theorists and futurologists refer to it as the ‘Great Filter’ … a series of challenges that civilizations go up against which determines if they make it past the filter or not.
Our current filters are climate change, nuclear war and artificial intelligence … will we use nuclear tech or AI to benefit ourselves? Will we work towards dealing with climate change? or will us acting negatively with all this be the cause of our regression … or destruction?
We have equal capability at this point … we are just as capable of collectively solving these problems … or using them to destroy ourselves.
Our collective futures are most definitely in our own hands … whether or not we use those hands for good or ill is up to us.
AI right now is not a challenge. It’s inflated vapourware.
AI isn’t a challenge to those who know better, the rest are already building their cults about it: some say it will save us from downfall, others saying it will create the downfall. The sad part is that either group could be right, as it’s all a self-fulfilling prophecy and just requires enough people participating in the myth to make it happen.
And I reject the “vapourware” label. Machine Learning has a lot of potential for the future, especially as we break out of standard Von Neumann architecture and experiment with different types of computers/computing. Will it ever do what the consumers currently expect it to do? No. Will it continue to develop and grow into it’s own domain of computing? I’d bet on it.
-
FWIW, book three is basically “a feminized society is incapable of making the hard but necessary choices”. I like the series for its concepts, but not its themes or characters. It has a lot of Incel-adjacent stuff going on.
That said, when we’re being so half hearted about global warming, it’s hard not to be cynical. People want the solutions to keep everything the same, but without carbon output. It’s not going to work that way.
We’re having a hard time convincing people that they don’t need an EV with 600 miles of range if you’re just willing to rest for 20 minutes every two to four hours of driving. Which would be a good idea, anyway. That’s a relatively minor change compared to the status quo.
The real solution is high speed rail and bikes. How do we get people to go along with that if we can’t even go so far as small changes to road trips?
Thank you, I have been saying the same thing about the books for a while now. They are incredibly misogynistic and the characters are pretty badly written. And yet I still keep seeing them recommended. They remind me of the old scifi novels like Niven and shit where its just a few cool scifi concepts and then a heaping load of sexism.
I listened to them on audiobook, most books I read more than once, don’t plan on going back to them though. A good series I recently listened to was the wayfarers by becky chambers, very good characters.
Honestly, I love driving so, so much, and I cannot fathom a road trip where we don’t make a pit-stop at least every four hours. In fact, you kind of had to do that back in the 80’s, because fuel economy was total shit back then. My little Mazda fuel sipper had a max range of a bit over 400 miles, and if we had to use my parents’ van, it was closer to 250-300.
Also I’m old and I need to pee regularly.
Who the fresh fuck needs an EV that goes for a billion miles?
and I cannot fathom a road trip where we don’t make a pit-stop at least every four hours
yall must be roadtrip spartans if you can go 4 hours without a pitstop
As someone who’s read the series, every single character of wood which is a damn shame.
It’s a lot like golden age American SF. Fantastic concepts, cardboard characters.
I’ve only had some exposure to chinese society, but the little I do know helped flesh out the characters. Remember how Bilbo did not off his relatives tea, and it was a serious disrespect? There’s a lot of cultural norms followed or disobeyed in the book that describe the characters’ natures.
FWIW, book three is basically “a feminized society is incapable of making the hard but necessary choices”.
That is one way of reading it. Another is that the vast majority of humans will do the decent thing even if it ends up backfiring on them. Which, if anything, is wildly optimistic. I would also point out that of the two species in conflict, the one that played decent went on to become a galactic civilisation, while the other died out.
Trisolarans did make it to the end. The message sent out to everyone included their language. The humans who became a galactic civilization were from a renegade ship that took the selfish choice in the Prisoners Dilemma.
Wasn’t it only one Trisolarian who survived? Also the humans were from two ships if I remember correctly, and one was a civilian ship.
you’re not wrong, but is easier to buy a car that can travel that than it is to convince people to build thousands, if not tens of thousands, of charging stations
Are charging stations really the problem nowadays? At least here in Germany, it is not.
In the US, it’s getting there, but not good enough.
I just did a trip to Minneapolis and tried to use some of the chargers around the suburb of Plymouth. They chose a deployment based on the DirtRoad app, which is terrible. Totally broken. Tried three different L3 stations and they all errored out in unique ways.
Came down to going to the other side of the city to a Walmart, with only a few miles of range to spare. Of all places, Walmart seems to at least have reliable chargers.
US needs lots more L3 chargers, and tons more L2 chargers in places you’ll tend to be a while (hotels and event parking and such). Once that’s done, though, there isn’t much call for more than 400 miles of range, tops. Further battery improvements can go into making it cheaper and lighter, not go longer.
Just an anecdote: Any bike I’ve ever owned, got stolen or if it was well locked, wrecked and hacked to shit for no apparent reason. I have ADHD so it’s difficult for me to go through the motions of carrying the bike with me to the office and back, each time I leave, and at home I haven’t the space to bring it up with me. Most grocers or markets or shops don’t allow me to wheel it along with me inside.
It would be amazing if that was an option, but I’m not rich enough to replace a bike every few months, and I do move enough to warrant having a good bike, not just any cheap and rusty one. So it’s a pickle.
I am still very much in opposition of unnecessary cars in cities, so I do not own one currently, and instead of bike, I move about with buses and trains. It’s okay, but I’d love to have the freedom some days, that a bike provides.
But it is simply impossible for me to own one. It makes no sense whatsoever, since for some reason, the cities are not even close to safe to keep one for someone like me who’s not so great with self-execution and routines. And I live in one of the safest countries on earth, that has been declared the happiest country on earth for 7 years in row now… I can’t imagine how bad it is elsewhere…
Sometimes reality does not fit well with ideals.
Luckily, I have the option of public transport. But I don’t even know what I would do if I didn’t…
That’s surprising. I own a bicycle too, as does practically everyone here. Never got it stolen.
A tip is to not have an expensive looking bicycle, but one that looks shoddy. Locking can also happen in multiple ways, and at different places. You might need to bind it to a street light for example, through the wheel and the frame.
A foldable bicycle is also an option.
Most everyone I know have and daily drive one too.
The difference is in the having adhd and not having adhd department. They are very careful and dutiful with them. I can only ever attempt my best to be so, and it only takes the one slip of the mind and it’s gone.
I’m not saying having and using a bike is not safe. I’m saying having and using a bike is not safe, if you end up offering the low hanging fruit to thieves even once a while.
deleted by creator
Capitalist realism. Human society has always been able to solve its problems. The issue is capitalism — our current society — can’t solve the problems it created like massive wars, hunger, regular economic crisis, and global warming.
Capitalism hasn’t existed forever, and it won’t exist in the future. Our civilization will solve the problem of capitalism by seeing to its abolition.
Capitalism hasn’t existed forever, it literally started in the late 1700s during a period called The Industrial revolution, when factory machining started the first cottage industries that pushed out previous modes of hand crafting.
At that point, when machines and cottages to hold them started to be required for mass production and hence competition in the market (pushing out hand crafting as a competitor) CAPITAL became a requirement of mass wealth accumulation… because one needed large sums of Capital to buy the machinery, rent the building, and hire and train the workers to exploit. So it became the limited province of the already well off to do.
That’s when Capitalism was born, and why it’s named CAPITAL-ism. Because it has Capital requirements if you want to join the Capitalist class. It was created in the British Industrial Revolution.
That you’re unaware of this change in the mode of production and what it represents, and believe that "oh Capital has just existed forever" is what some Marxists refer to as being in a state of “false consciousness”.
The system wasn’t always this way, and doesn’t have to necessarily be this way (eg. Marx offered the model of workers owning the machinery or “means of production” as his alternative, and there are likely others). Capitalism is a product of a technological “change of epoch” of the “mode of production.”
…and it’s defined the age we live in, and how we think. Which is what the later Frankfurt School neo-marxists discuss.
P.S. It’s also worth noting that the British Industrial Revolution, The French Revolution, and the American Revolution all overlap in time periods. Live was very different before the late 1700s.
Are you referring to some pre-capitalism economic systems?
Like Feudalism? Greco-Roman slave-based economies? Tribal subsistence economies? Mesopotamian barter-based economies? Ancient Indian caste-based economies?
Seriously, which system are you pointing to that holds answers? I’m not against your position, I just can’t imagine what you mean.
Are you referring to some pre-capitalism economic systems?
Yes. The person with the hammer and sickle handle, who moderates Leftypedia, thinks we should retvrn to a caste system. You nailed it. Your question is definitely in good faith.
Communism is not pre-capitalistic.
Wow. I didn’t know that. I just, uh, you’re telling me now for the first time. I’m actually sad to hear that. I am sad to hear that. Thank you very much.
But… you sarcastically implied the answer to the question “what pre-capitalistic system are you referring to” is communism. I can’t get a read on you unless you’re just very confused, bro.
The answer to the question is, “None,” because it’s a stupid question.
It’s like if somebody said they hate cars, and we can do without them. Then some stupid asshole said, “I see. Should we return to the horse and buggy? Perhaps the rickshaw? Chariots, perhaps? Maybe a world where kings are carried on a throne upon the shoulders of slaves? Or maybe just piggyback rides? Kindly ignore the existence of trains and bicycles. Thanks!”
I reject the premise of the question, because the question isn’t asked in good faith, and is fucking stupid.
As you wish – and I agree with you – but you must admit that sarcastically implying the answer is communism isn’t conducive to your position.
deleted by creator
I don’t know where you’re getting all that information, because I’m on mobile and I don’t see any of that.
We’re not looking to return to anything, we’re hoping to finally win the fight against greedy psychopaths
Capitalistic Socialism seems the most successful offshoot of Capitalism. Pure Capitalism is killing its social networks, and the fabric of that system’s societies is falling apart.
It was just the statement that “human society has always been able to solve it’s problems” followed by a condemnation of capitalism. So I assumed there was some prior system that worked better for solving problems.
I guess they say Mussolini made the trains run on time. And Egypt’s slave economy was stable for thousands of years.
It’s like I said, I can’t see a prior example that is not meaner and uglier than capitalism, or at least as mean and ugly.
Capitalistic Socialism may indeed be a better path for the future. But I didn’t think it could be the original poster’s intent.
Oh no. Now we’ve done it.
apparently “egypts slave economy” is largely debunked. they had slaves like every other stone age culture, but their economy (and pyramid building) relied largely on paid labor
And of all the ones there, that one I pulled out of my ass. Thank you.
For the records, saying that capitalism is temporary does not imply OP desires reverting to a previously existing economic system either, so the egypt thing was a non-sequitor anyways
You’re joking, right?
No?
I’d diagnose the problem similarly to the person you replied to and I don’t think I’d feel compelled to offer a specific remedy either.
People have been experimenting with economies and societies for thousands of years and we are in a relatively new money/power/control stuck spot right now. I’m sure there’s been a system in history that would work much better than what we’ve got, but I just read recreationally so I dunno what it is and just because something worked 1000 years ago in North America doesn’t mean it’ll work here today. I wouldn’t mind giving something new a shot though, what we have is not working for most people.
Things seemed pretty good in the pre-agricultural age of hunting and gathering.
The whole “good times create weak people” is fascist propaganda.
Context: An eco-terrorist organization that’s a fifth column for an alien invasion made this statement
We’re capable, we just have to stop relying on technology, hierarchies, and buck-passing to solve our societal problems for us.
When we rely on technology (in this case I mean “any human-made cosntruct to solve a problem” and not just “machines”), we start falling into the Golden Hammer bias. Think of a societal issue that you care about, no matter how general, look it up, and see some results are just “So-and-so has invented an app to combat [issue].” Then you look into the app and realize that it doesn’t do anything to attack the root of the problem, and instead treats some symptoms while fitting into the existing framework that caused the problem in the first place. Incidentally, that’s how society has become so full of middlemen.
E.g. insurance: health care becomes expensive enough to break the bank for everyone below a certain threshhold -> someome proposes a system where everyone pays so the people who need it can cash in -> the people who need it pay for this system, those who don’t need it don’t pay -> the system needs overhead, so it starts charging more and attempting to drive down costs -> the providers artificially increase prices to compensate for the costs being driven down -> more people need insurance. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Tons of ink has been spilled on the problems with hierarchy, but the simplest argument I can give on why it’s bad at solving societal issues is: when you put your fate in someone else’s hands, you give them the ability to make choices that negatively impact you with no recourse.
Every solution to this problem so far has either been “let’s just add another person who sits above the people who sit above us” (which just adds a layer to the original problem) or “let’s try to make our relationship more equal without removing their power over us” which cuts down on the benefits of entrusting that power to someone else AND provides none of the benefits of an equal (horizontal) relationship.
Finally, buck-passing is tempting, especially when the problems aren’t our fault. But we’ve become a global society of people looking to point the finger at someone else, and pay another person to do the hard part for us.
Take climate change for example. One of the rallying cries of online activists has been “100 companies are responsible for 71% of GHG emissions.” Great! Now what? What good did assigning blame do? What I’ve been told is that now we should get them to stop. Ok, how? The response i usually get is to elect officials who will enact sanctions for polluting and rewards for cutting down on pollution. And now we’re passing the buck, adding a middleman, giving someone else power over us to control our fate, and completely relying on the demonstrably broken technology that is representative government.
What I want to know is what I can personally do today, starting now, to combat the problem. What change to my lifestyle can I make that won’t destroy me or my future? I’m not saying we shouldn’t support representatives who act in our interests—we absolutely, unequivocally should do that (unless it hampers our ability to enact a better solution)—but I want a solution I can personally participate in, too.
Because, by and large, those solutions get a lot more good done quicker while relying less on “necessary” evils.
What I’m hearing you say is, we can solve our own problems, we just need human nature to be different. Which, well… Good luck.
To conflate the way of the crowd with human nature is a folly at best
Come on. The way humans behave in groups is certainly part of human nature. And when we’re talking about solving problems of a society, it is the most relevant part.
Yes, but not all humans behave the same way in groups. That’s why cultures are different, it’s why the fields of sociology and anthropology exist, and it’s why conflating “something a lot of people do” with “human nature” is pessimist bologna.
I can give you the only true answer to your question of “what can I do today to help fight climate change?” But you won’t like it and this ‘solution’ does not preserve society in really any meaningful way, however it does help to address climate change and prevent the entire natural world from dying of heat stroke. So the question becomes, what do you want to save? You can’t save everything and trying to do so will only result in you saving nothing.
The answer is large scale industrial sabotage. And when everything grinds to a halt and people start starving to death because of no industrialized food production and various other factors, you will regret the actions. As you and your own family fall victim to violence over food or land because everyone is panicking and trying to survive, you will likely regret it more. But then in 1000 years, there may still be people alive to call you a monster, if they remember you at all.
You’re right, I don’t like this answer. But it’s only partly for the reasons you assume. I’ll let someone else argue ethics with you, since I’m not particularly well informed in that regard.
I also don’t like this answer because it gives me a nebulous handwaving in the direction of mass action in lieu of actual advice. You may as well have said “revolution,” it’s only slightly less specific.
Which is… unhelpful, to say the least. Should I google “guide to industrial sabotage” or “how to start and run a global ecoterrorist movement”? Obviously not, that’s a sure way to end up in prison before I’ve made any difference.
All the solutions in the world don’t count for dog spit if they’re not practical (in all definitions of the word). What can I personally do here and now?
Or you could mandate that corporations, instead of being legally required to make the line go up at the expense of anyone they can exploit, are required to pursue less environmentally destructive practices. I wouldn’t be surprised if a number of them already did research on this but found it impacted their bottom line and dismissed it.
I’m fucking laughing out loud reading this comment.
Our civilization is more than capable, but those who have money and power are unwilling, because that’s not something they’re interested or invested in.
Distribution of money and power is a facet of society.
Those were the delusional words of someone who lived in an upside down country. Kinda agree but if a single country fails, humanity doesn’t get extinguished.
Think about climate change and reevaluate that position. There is no feasible way that the countries of the world will get together and all agree to do anything meaningful about it because anything MEANINGFUL will result in mass death. There’s really no other way around it. Which is why everyone is dragging their feet. Who wants that? Who wants to be responsible for that?
Earth’s climate has changed many times before and life found a way, regardless.
People who hate themselves and have low self steem say that humans are cancer but the real cancer are the doomers that only sigh, complain and lie flat without doing anything to help because they think everything is doomed. Well, aside from the usual corporate billionaire cancer from crapitalism
Humanity fuck yeah.
No civilization has ever been capable of solving the problems of civilization. This is why history hasn’t ended yet. We hope that eventually we may discover how to address the problems of civilization. We weren’t built for any of this. We have to use non-intuitive methodology because the intuitions we evolved have equipped us for a totally different lifestyle. We have not figured out how to get humanity to function peacefully and productively in these massive systems. We’re the first animals to even try to do what we’re doing.
Only way we solve all of our problems is fundamentally changing human nature imo regardless of what system you try to put in place
The thing about that is that there isn’t a definable human nature, just tendencies and systems. Using technology like CRISPR to force a definable human nature for all humans would likely doom us. It would be nice until the the environment we adapted our species to changes and then no one in the entire population would be capable of adapting to the new environment since we bottlenecked ourselves for short-term peace and prosperity.
I’m not suggesting changing human nature would be anything but a terrible, dystopian idea, just that it’s the only way to solve certain problems
The real solution is just to live with the flaws and try minimise the damage
I disagree. I see problems solved all the time.
(Squints) What do you mean by “solved”?
I mean, we’re pretty good at math. We can “solve” math problems. But when the math is applied and we choose to do the opposite of what the math says, then we’ve not “solved” the problem, we legitimately make it worse.
See also: climate change, housing bubbles, food insecurity, pay equity, universal childcare, universal healthcare, universal pharmacare, student to teacher ratios, media consolidation, and most other market-based solutions.
e: and, as said below, war. That math only maths when dominating “others”.
I’m referring to the way golden rice solved vitamin A deficiency for millions of people.
I don’t care about math “problems” at all I’m talking about real problems.
I think it is still capable of solving the problems we currently have, but the biggest question is, will it?
Politics, nationalism, greed, and corporations are currently blocking attempts to solve the climate crisis.
Can we get them out of the way before it’s too late? I guess we’ll find out.
I honestly think it’s too late already. The world as we know it will cease to exist soon. We are already clearly seeing the effects of climate change, and there is much more to come based on the current level of co2. Not to mention that we keep pumping more of the stuff into our atmosphere.
If something absolutely won’t do something, it is not capable of doing that thing.
Won’t =/= can’t
We can solve problems, the status quo is just to profitable for those in power. Don’t you find it strange how the status quo persists despite both mainstream political parties running a Change candidate for president and winning? (MAGA is the shitters form of change, just in the wrong way)
Clearly the people are looking for solutions, even if they don’t know the answers.
Consider watching a video on first past three post voting. If we change how we vote in each of our individual states , people can vote for 3rd parties and still have their vote count if their preference didn’t win. No spoiler effect!
Aren’t we in the USA already at >200 electoral votes total that have pledged to put all of their votes towards whoever wins the popular vote? That said, I would expect a more serious resistance as it inches closer to where it might actually make a difference.
Also, I realize that isn’t quite the same thing as fully moving away from a first past the vote system, but it is a type of reformation and it does help get away from the electoral college system in particular, so seems somewhat related.
I’m partial to the notion of memetic evolution, which is to say that humans have a concurrent driver of behavior besides our genes. Less so than capability or willingness, I tend to believe that some of the memes driving us are too successful, if that makes sense. They perfectly capitalize on the foibles of the human organism and I just don’t believe we’re able to surmount that. The only likely way out is running through the painful cycle described in another comment here. We need to suffer sufficiently to initiate a change in the ideas by which we operate
How are these memes different from ideas and the world of conscious human discourse?
If there was a time in the past that we were capable of solving our problems, why didn’t we do it then?
“Problems existing” is not the same as “never solving any problems.” Old problems get solved, new ones arise, and no problem gets solved until it does. People in the middle of the process always point to the extant problems and go “welp, we’ve never solved that one, guess we’re fucked”
Great point. Have we ever?
