Don’t forget that the whole Federation is a post captialist utopia which is a political statement in itself.
I like this idea too but ST only partially supports it.
In ST, the only reason they’re ostensibly post capitalist is because they’ve solved the shortage problem. The replicator and anti-matter reactors are mulligans that get them a post capitalist world without making any social decisions. They don’t restructure their society or economy to create an alternate method to distribute limited resources, they just get unlimited resources. That limits the usefulness of the analogy because we’ll probably never achieve that.
Later on ST goes further and starts discussing several resources that are, in fact, limited. There’s “latinum” which really only exists as a post scarcity exception. It doesn’t really seem to have any uses but the scarcity is enough to drive the entire Ferengi economy and it’s valuable enough that people want to trade with them.
The much bigger exception is the scarcity of trilithium. The Federation fights wars over it the same way real world Earth powers fight over oil. It’s the scarce core resource powering their entire post-scarcity economy.
Don’t forget that the whole Federation is a post captialist utopia which is a political statement in itself.
Great point!
“‘No need for/Evolved past the need for money’ … yeah, wtf, lets just completely ignore that ever-present bit, it’s too scary & perverted to comprehend.”
- avg capitalists Trekkie (or “Trekkie”)
Star Trek is and always has been deeply and inherently political
What?! Fashion-Lizard and his Sidekick Dr.Twink are Woke?! I can’t believe it!
Well, it did take a while for Fashion-Lizard to stop being Fascism-Lizard.
People whined about black hobbits and elves.
Wait until people finally get the epiphany that Star Trek is advocating for a world government. And how many here, including outside the Internet, would actually like that?
Precisely.
I don’t know. I might like that? It depends a lot on how it is implemented and who is in charge. 😅
And how much power the global government has compared to individual regions.
World government advocates would want a democray with a strong constitution that ensures checks and balance, and a federal system.
- Constitution 🇺🇲
- “Checks and balances” 🇺🇲
- Federal system 🇺🇲
Sounds like you just wanna expand the United States to incorporate the whole world there, good buddy 🙃
Huh? That’s not exclusively American. Democratic countries have them.
Just making a wee joke here, don’t mind it 🙂
IIRC, a world government is a prerequisite for joining the Federation isn’t it?
Is there a single episode without politics?
I liked Trek before Alex Kurzman stuck his filthy fingers in it and made entire franchise a steaming pile of dog shit.
Haha, true that.
But he tried.
And failed.
This is one of the first claims I remember reading about Star Trek on BBSs linked by FidoNet. It’s funny how it hasn’t changed.
I like scifi. I like to explore the strange and push past the walls of reality. I like dangerous visions. Big ideas.
But interpersonal drama, identity-stroking and, yes, politics. It’s just weak and boring. It’s small. Damn small.
Do you see the difference?
Sometimes startrek goes big. Sometimes it doesn’t.
politics is all-encompassing, it can be as big or as small as anything else
Well I suppose it’s a matter of perspective.
Sci-fi is at its best when it recontextualizes an idea in a way that makes us consider it from a different perspective.
Battlestar Galactica did an awesome job of turning the issues around entirely. Famously, it essentially turned the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan on their heads in Season 3, and you had the good guys building IEDs and employing suicide bombers to kill collaborators.
But my favorite one was when they came up with a situation in which outlawing abortion was necessary, and the political opposition used it as an opportunity to manufacture outrage and steal an election even though they didn’t actually care about the issue at all.
But you don’t need spaceships and aliens to do that. It’s just fetishwear at that point.
In real scifi it isn’t fetishwear. It actually serves a purpose.
The spaceships and aliens are how you get people to look at it from a new perspective.
The early seasons of DS9 were about the aftermath of the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and the fall of the Soviet Union. 1990s Americans couldn’t have cared less about the dangers of far-right religious indoctrination of schoolchildren, the re-intrigation of traumatized resistance fighters into peacful society, the cautious restoration of political and economic ties with former occupiers, and the danger of the discovery of a new resource in the territory of a politically and militarily fragile nation full of extremists.
But throw in phasers and a warp drive and people will watch. Suddenly you’ve tricked people into recognizing that people with different backgrounds and religions can embrace their differences to make the world a better place, or reject that unity and create suffering. You have capitalists and socialists sharing space in peace. There’s an invented taboo against rekindling an old relationship that’s actually about gay rights.
All these amazing topics are brought to an audience that just wanted laser fights.
Any genre show can do it. My parents were as red-blooded Republican as anyone, but the third episode of The Last of Us had them crying tears of joy and pain over the love story between 2 men. It tricked them into becoming open-minded by promising zombies.
That’s fiction at its finest.
Yes, like I said, fetishwear. Nonfunctional costumery
Their function is using them to introduce concepts to an audience that may not otherwise be interested or receptive.
Yes, I get the point.
You need good characters to make a good show regardless of the setting, and also to help the viewers relate to the “big” stuff going on around them.
Don’t get me wrong, I think I like the stuff you like. I’d happily watch a documentary about all the made up technology and new science & life they discover, with zero need for conflict or personal growth or “feelings” or whatever. But that wouldn’t be the TV show, which is experienced largely through the eyes of the crew.
If first interracial kiss on TV is Woke then I don’t wanna be anything but.
Don’t forget The Measure of a Man. We literally watched that in 9th grade American History, as a commentary about slavery.
It reminds me of those people that claim The X-Men have gotten “woke” even though that’s been the whole point of the comic since the 60’s or worse yet those poor souls out there who thought Rage Against the Machine was getting too political lol
Reminds me of a YouTube comment under the video where they got cut of during a bbc live take for singing “fuck” after the production team brieft them to not sing fuck: “What machine they thought they rage against? The printer?”
“Please, if you find one of our songs that isn’t political, please show it to me so I can verify and have it removed.” - Tom Morello
There’s a lot in renegades
I wonder what these people think “the machine” means 😭
the printer obvs
Fuck you, I won’t print what you tell me
Low on cyan
printing in black and white
I don’t know about woke but I liked Trek before it got boring and poorly written -_-
That’s basically all it is: Media getting “too big to fail” and then neutering its writing quality by committee. It tries to tell socially progressive stories at the same time, so people associate the two.
A streamer pointed out the cognitive dissonance people have, when “anti-woke” people played Baldur’s Gate 3. It was gender expressive and diverse…but it was also GOOD writing. So they decided it was”wasn’t woke”.
Yep, and they suck at analogies too. The old format usually had fairly enlightened people encounter an injustice, usually making it right in some way. It’s morality theater. Discovery made the Federation itself dark and edgy and the people on board a complete mess, not a world I’d like to live in. Maybe that’s what some people perceive when they complain about “politics”.
That’s fair, the cartoon is apparently not bad, just not my cup of tea.
Lower Decks is my favorite Star Trek since DS9. When it came out though, I was super against it. Didn’t think Paramount had any right to be making fun of Star Trek after Discovery season 1. You can tell Lower Decks is made by people that love Star Trek though.
This last season, they did a classic Audience-with-the-Klingon-High-Council episode, and when I saw it, I exclaimed to my fiance, “Yes! I love Klingon bureaucracy episodes!” and then later in the episode, there was almost that exact same line
Strange New Worlds has been finding their feet too. We got a courtroom episode on Augment rights, that really felt Star Trek, and they’ve had some original stories as well that I’ve really loved, like Among the Lotus Eaters. There have been a couple episodes I haven’t been a fan of, but what Star Trek hasn’t had those?
If you’re open to it, I recommend giving both shows another chance!
Lower Decks and SNW are FANTASTIC and some of the best Trek in a very long time. Almost as good as The Orville ;)
Yeah it’s good and agreed that discovery is pure ass so It’s definitely a little bit of both
We have The Orville today for good Trek
I really tried to like that show but it’s just … Bad. To each their own but I’d rather just rewatch TNG or whatever other Star Trek. That show feels like it doesn’t have an identity, the writers couldn’t decide what kind of show they were writing and the acting is subpar.
Of course, if you enjoy it that’s all that really matters - keep on watching and having fun!
How far did you make it? Season 1 is a bit painful, Season 2 is better but Season 3 is a big shift.
Seth McFarland’s humor is not very good…
Season 3 was a surprise. They just played it straight. Went from parody to homage.
Not very far lol, a couple episodes to give it a fair shake though, do you have an episode recommendation?
Season 1 episode 10
If you don’t like it I don’t think you will care for the rest
Season 2 Episode 8-9 is a two part episode that is good but I wouldn’t recommend jumping into it because it’s not as good if you don’t care about the characters
Just echoing here that it does take awhile to get going.
Honestly, despite what I’m about to say below, I probably wouldn’t recommend it now (just on signal to noise ratio) if not for https://thecinemaholic.com/the-orville-season-4/ giving hope for more story, or unless you happened to be a superfan of Seth McFarlane.
My .02 -
Season 1 -
First reaction - wow this DOES feel like TNG.
Second reaction - WAY too much Family-Guy style humor.
I like humor in my scifi, and I like Family-Guy style humor (during its heyday anyhow). Season 1 episode 7 almost made me turn it off. No one trying to pay homage to trek should be writing in something like this as a first contact “mistake”. IMO in S1 we learned that Family-Guy style humor doesn’t always work in live action.
Season 2 - Better, but still trying to find the right blend. It’s been awhile now, but I think S2 got better and better over time and had some pretty good eps.
Season 3 - Really great, hit their stride, perfect blend of humor and drama, super disappointed when it was cancelled.
Season 4 - See link above. If they can recapture S3 vibes I’m excited for it, but I’m not 100% confident they will. Fingers crossed.
With all that said, if you are considering it at all, I’d just watch it all. That way you get the evolution of the show, the running gags, and don’t miss any significant bits that are sprinkled through, and you know all the road that has been traveled when they get to S4. It’s only three seasons and it’s not a long show. Yes, some of it is cringe, but so was some of the early seasons of TNG.
Thank you for the lengthy write up. You see though the problem with watching it all is I’d be watching it all… I do appreciate the time it must have taken for this reply though.
That clip on YouTube you linked was super cringe. Agree with you on TNG there’s definitely times and episodes where I think the writers phoned it in and I’m not going to pretend it’s all good. Still my favorite star trek but I don’t watch much so that’s not saying anything considering I haven’t even seen any of the new stuff.
Can’t stomach McFarlane unfortunately. I’m told it gets better later on but his sense of humor is just like nails on a chalkboard to me. Couldn’t get myself to finish the first season.
My partner and I have a theory that MacFarlane pitched The Orville as “Family Guy in space,” and he got to make it because of his success with Family Guy. But the actual goal he had all along was to make Star Trek.
In order to keep the game up and get a second season, he had to sell the pitch at least a bit. So the early episodes are like Star Trek with cringey Family Guy-esque jokes. But as the series goes on, the cringe stops, the jokes slow down, and the plots get deeper.
I can’t stand cringe humor and did not consider myself a fan of MacFarlane, but The Orville changed that.
Exactly. Orville is more “woke” and i absolutely love it. It’s supposed to be just a sort of comedy parody of star trek, yet it has more depth than the Discovery has.
Yes, but that’s a reasonable take, so it gets drowned out.
True. We don’t have masterpieces like “Spock’s Brain” anymore. /S
Say what you want about TOS, it’s campy and silly but it’s not boring.
Even Platos Stepchildren, which everyone remembers for the first interracial kiss, was a pretty fucking terrible episode.
My favorite detail of the TNG episode “The Outcast” is that the writers were pushing for an episode that touched on sexuality but Rick Berman wouldn’t go for it. So the writers gave a figurative “fuck you” and wrote an episode on gender identity instead.
And while Berman was occupied holding TNG back the DS9 writers had enough freedom to use the Dax symbiote’s multiple lifetimes to explore sexuality instead.
The DS9 writers would sometimes write a script that they knew would be approved and then give the actors “suggested improvised lines” for what they actually wanted.
Does anyone else remember that TNG had a recurring background character who was just a regular crewman but he always wore a Star Fleet dress or skirt that would just walk around in the background of scenes? He may have had heels as well, I can’t remember. Regardless I always thought it was neat that they never made a big deal out of it or a joke
Its a type of uniform called a Skant. It was TNG trying to make the TOS miniskirts unisex. It only lasted a couple seasons I think, but it’s gotten a couple callbacks on Lower Decks.
I never understood that complaint about Star Trek. The series has ALWAYS been woke since the beginning.
Kinda like people complaining Rage Against the Machine becoming political.
Always has been.True in a way, but it was more philosophical and not “in your face”. It made you think about it, and the story was way waay better and deeper than today’s pew-pew starwars approach to star trek. Every episode had a meaning and a lession.
True in a way, but it was more philosophical and not “in your face”.
they did the first US interracial kiss during a time that would be controversial.
it was “in your face”
It was much better integrated into the story. The problem isn’t the message, it’s the writing.
Yeah but that was something that happened and it wasnt a big deal, that’s the whole point. It wasnt the centerpoint of the whole episode, it wasnt the main act and talked about throughout the episode non stop. It’s just something that was normal and happened in normal day to day life. In future these things are considered normal and not worth talking about, because racism is something that did not exist in like 300 years.
Yeah the problem isn’t the ideals being in there but how bad the story is makes the ideals seem like a cheap crutch.
Compare Brokeback Mountain to Ben and Arthur. Both movies about the relationship between gay men and society. Both say gay people should be treated fairly by socity but aren’t. The first does it in interesting way with great storytelling and ideas. The later is a hamfisted mess.
I’m not going to say modern Trek is Ben and Arthur bad but it is much closer to Ben and Arthur writing then it is to Brokeback Mountain.
